Purposeful Growth Beyond Figures with Brendan McGurgan.

From the humble beginnings in Northern Ireland during the Troubles to the heights of business leadership, our guest Brendan McGurgan , co-founder of Simple Scaling, has a tale that transcends ordinary success stories. Join us as he recounts his transformation from a chartered accountant to an influential CEO who has driven his company to nine-figure revenues. Brendan's narrative is a testament to the power of purposeful scaling; less than half a percent of SMEs achieve significant growth, yet his journey and insights provide a blueprint for those daring to dream big.

Scaling a business isn't just about numbers; it's a psychological marathon that demands resilience over luck. Drawing from his own experiences and conversations with industry experts, Brendan delves into how leaders can dismantle the mental barriers that often impede growth. He shares how the narratives we tell ourselves can dramatically shape our business trajectory. Moreover, Brendan sheds light on the cultural nuances of entrepreneurship, comparing the American go-getter spirit with the humility of his Irish upbringing, illustrating how community and environment can sculpt indomitable leaders.

We wrap up with a look into Simple Scaling's holistic approach to business growth—ranging from the ScaleX Accelerator Program to talent solutions and investment opportunities. Brendan emphasizes the importance of coaching and empowering business leaders to scale with intention while maintaining personal well-being. For those who aspire to expand their enterprises without losing their essence, this episode is a treasure trove of guidance and profound life lessons, all shared by a man who knows just how to navigate the challenging yet rewarding path to scaling with purpose.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hey guys. So welcome back to the podcast and Conversations that Matter, and this is a conversation that really matters if you're really interested in growing as a person and growing and scaling your business. And I'm really excited to have Brendan McGregor on the podcast. Brendan, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:17

Oh, thank you so much for having me, seamus.

Speaker 1: 0:19

I'm really, really looking forward to the conversation, brendan, for people that are listening and don't know who you are and what you actually do. Do you mind giving us a wee short uh insight into who you are, what you're involved in and what you're inspired by?

Speaker 2: 0:32

you tell me how deep you want to go, but certainly what I'm involved with now. I am the director and co-founder of a company called simple scaling and our purpose is to inspire, connect and enable ambitious leaders of small and medium-sized enterprises to scale with purpose. I co-founded that company four years ago now and prior to that I was involved in a scale-up, albeit it wasn't called scaling back then. That word scaling has only entered the business lexicon probably in the last, I would say, 10 years. But I was with with a company called some of your listeners may know, a company called CDE, as an engineering company. I was there for 17 years 12 as the CEO of that business and we scaled that business. From when I joined we had 15 people working out of a small industrial estate in Cookstown turning over about three, three and a half million revenue, mostly coming from Ireland, and we scaled it to almost 700 people. We set up offices in six continents, we exported to more than 100 countries and we became number one in our industry scaling scaling the business to nine-figure revenues. So I thought everyone was doing this and I was caught in the bubble of all things that were CDE. I joined in my late 20s and left in my early 40s and realized then which was the catalyst for finding simple scaling finding simple scaling that actually less than and the stats now suggest that less than half a percent of small and medium-sized enterprises actually achieve scaling, despite the fact that in the UK just to kind of geek out on some stats for a moment but small and medium-sized enterprises contribute 2.3 trillion pounds worth of revenue to the UK economy. There's 5.6 million of those SMEs and 1.3 trillion pounds of that revenue is coming from 26,000 companies which are scale-ups. So these scale-ups are critically important to to the lifeblood of our communities, to our society, to two economies and, as a whole, so hugely passionate about that. As part of that journey, I co-authored a book called simple scaling 10 proven principles, 10x your business, and we turned that into a scaling program to hand whole CEOs through that scaling journey. So it's a year-long program or scalex accelerator program, and prior to, prior to CDE, I qualified actually as a chartered accountant and got into business that way. That was my route into business.

Speaker 2: 3:20

On a personal note, I grew up in Portadown during the troubles. I'm a child of the 70s and 80s and it was no accident that I became a chartered accountant. I had actually no idea what it was, but my dad left school at 16. My mum was the same. They weren't educated, but, as you well know, growing up in Northern Ireland in the Troubles, there was a huge emphasis put on education, and my dad was a bookkeeper, finally became head of finance of a car company without any qualifications, but he helped me. He helped me put the, the numbers in the calculator in an evening. I loved that and he said someday, son, you'll be a chartered account. I said, uh, whatever, dad, I have no idea what that is, but just keep calling out the numbers. So so I became a chartered accountant and that was my, my route into business.

Speaker 1: 4:04

Fantastic man, fantastic Brendan. Take us back there, then. So I'd like to get a wee more of an insight into, as we know, a lot of the values that we have as adults and what we're involved in right now start with the voids that we experienced when we were younger, and they're intrinsically connected. So what was it like as a young Brendan growing up in Portadown? You mentioned the troubles. There's a lot of people listening in here from all over the world. Give us a wee bit of an insight, then, what it was like you grew up in Portadown, as you said. What was?

Speaker 2: 4:33

that like as a young Brendan McGregor. Well, for me, you knew nothing else, so you didn't appreciate. You just thought, you know, when you went down the town, yeah, there's the army, there's the Land Rovers, there's the tanks, oh, the town's closed off today. You know, this is just the way you lived. Oh, yeah, we're coming up to a checkpoint. You know you wind the window down, you're going to get questioned, and so you know, you'd nothing to contrast that because that was your only experience.

Speaker 2: 5:02

So I grew up, I was the middle of five, as my siblings will tell me, I'm very well balanced with a chip on both shoulders. So we, you know, mum stayed at home, dad went out to work, as I say, he left school at 16. So huge, because he was the eldest in his house. He had to leave school. His father died whenever he was, whenever he was 16. So, um, so there was a huge emphasis on work and a good work ethic. Um, we didn't have much growing up, small house and, uh, as I say, growing up in the troubles, there was an emphasis put and certainly, um, growing up as a, as a young catholic. In in northern, in Northern Ireland, it was believed that education was a way to, to gain freedom and to travel the world. And this again, it's no accident that the five of us are all you know, we have all professional careers, are certainly qualified into professions. Yet mum and dad weren't educated and but huge emphasis on values, huge emphasis on work ethic, huge emphasis on on respect. We all had jobs, from no age, you know, I was cycling out to pick strawberries, you know, whenever I was eight years of age, nine years of age, then kind of graduated into picking apples.

Speaker 2: 6:21

Then I worked into a clothes shop, they in a bar. I put myself through University, you know, and so everything, everything that you got you earned, you know, you, you bought your first car you like. If I came home from university at the weekends, if I took groceries, I paid for those groceries. It wasn't the case of, you know, mom had just snipped out to Marks and Spencer's and and brought, bought you your favorite lasagna, whatever you you were paying for, whatever you took out of the, out of the freezer. So there was a, a healthy respect for, well, say, healthy respect.

Speaker 2: 6:58

There was a, a cognizance that there wasn't a lot, um, you know, probably a scarcity mindset around money on one hand, but ultimately my father was. His mantra was always I can and I will. So there's this sense of belief that you can do whatever you want to do. So probably contrasting in some way and kind of as I, as I entered the latter stages of my 40s, you can start to see that at different times. So it's it's interesting. But you know, we grew up, I moved. Then mum wanted to get us out of Portadown. She was from the country she grew up in, uh, on a, in a, in an apple farm and um, and she wanted to get back out of the country, out of port of darwin. So I moved, moved to small village bali, egan, whenever I was 12, 13 years of age and had a great time there, and then on to university and and into accountancy after that fantastic.

Speaker 1: 7:56

Do you mention that, like in terms of um, that work ethic? And I remember when I was a kid, my older brothers, I was out in the bread van, I was in the milk van, I was in an ice cream van. I was always I think it was probably my parents kicking me out. Right, you're going out with Paul today, you're gonna be John the next day, you're gonna be Damien the next day. They were kicking me out of the house. But I was always involved in doing something and work ethic, from a very young age as well too. Do you feel that that's kind of missing right now in society? Sometimes I think if you were to say that to your kids right now, they'd be like I don't know, man, you owe me. Do you think that that's missing?

Speaker 2: 8:31

Yeah, it's different. Look, I have a 20-year-old, an 18-year-old and a 16-year-old and my daughter had made the point. She was going to Liverpool for the weekend and she had made a request for money. She's, you know, she's at University and we had a conversation, said that I wish you could cast your mind back to whenever you were a 20 year old and I said, okay, on you, let's just go there for a moment and I'll share with you what it was like, and so we can berate the fact that kids nowadays don't have that work ethic but their products of us. So you know, when I was, when I was growing up and people have a certain vintage will remember this like we had a Datsun Sunny we went to Westport for for one week during the year. The car was loaded with groceries for that week. There was five of us in the back, there was no car seats, there was no seat belts. You know it was just everybody get in and be glad that we're having a week's holidays here. Now you know, when my kids were born, it's oh, we're going gonna need to upgrade the jeep. Let's get a q7, let's, you know, let's get the maxi cozy, twistable car seat adjustment thingy. That makes sure that you know they're really safe and protected and let's ensure that you know we speak to our kids. When we were growing up, it was certainly, you know, be seen and not heard. You just did what you were told and the the conversation was don't challenge back. You know, don't contradict me, don't challenge back, have some respect. That was, that's what was embedded in you. Now, when we're growing up, or now as parents, certainly and and this is this is this is how I've parented you communicated to your kids from an early age and you not indulge, but you certainly provided them with things and opportunities and experiences that you never had. You know, when I was growing up, you went to two restaurants which I recall, and one was for my communion and the other was for my confirmation. Like now, our kids choose the restaurants that they want to go to and on the strength, the Wi-Fi signal of that restaurant, because they know, you know the Wi-Fi signals of all the different restaurants. You know, and that's their beneficiaries of the life that that we have provided to them. So it's and I say this to to the leaders coming through a program now where they go either. You know, it's a different generation, yeah, but the products of us. Same humans 100%, but they're products of us. So we can't, you know, we can't then, I suppose, get frustrated, or we can get frustrated, but it's all understand where's that frustration coming from.

Speaker 2: 11:24

We have brought our kids up differently from the way that we were brought up and we wanted to bring them up differently. We wanted to give them different experiences. We wanted them not to experience some of the challenges around money. We wanted to give them as many opportunities for them to experience things. So you know, know, again, when I was growing up, you didn't, you played. You played a bit of gaelic football. I wanted to do karate, but the karate lessons were, you know, they were, they were expensive kids nowadays. You know, and again, because you know, I've, I've parented my kids well.

Speaker 2: 12:01

I wanted them, as a life skill, to be able to swim, so that they all went to swimming lessons. You know, we wanted them to a life skill to be able to swim, so that we, they all, went to swimming lessons. You know, we wanted them to be part of the local community. So they played football. Camogie, you know, they did irish dancing pro. They went to drama at one stage. They dance. You know music, you know all of these things that are available now, that other kids are experiencing that you want your kids to also experience. So when they come into the workplace they want to know what's being laid on for them in the context of experiences, because that's what we've given them, so you. It's very it's. It's counterproductive if you try to impose your 20-year-old mentality to a 20-year-old now who has had a very different experience, different values, different belief systems than what we had growing up. That's my opinion.

Speaker 1: 12:59

Jim, yeah, 100%, and I think you had the nail in the head there, brendan. Every single person has a unique set of values, and a lot of the times where the conflict occurs is when we try and impose our values on other people, and especially our kids and my daughter's nearly 15, and she's the first to throw a bike in my face any time that I say to her about doing X, y and Z. That's your values, isn't it, man? That's brilliant, and I'm'm like.

Speaker 2: 13:26

I can't really argue about it yeah, well, look, it sounds like you've done a great job of teaching her about the importance of values yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:35

So, brendan, when you were leaving school, um and going out into the big bad world, what was it that you were really inspired to actually do and create at that time? Was it that I know you said about accountancy, but was that just kind of following what your father had said, or was that what you were really finding inspiration from at that time?

Speaker 2: 13:55

I feel it was following the value and emphasis put on education and I was quite good at this.

Speaker 2: 14:03

So you know I was quite good at maths. So you know I was. It was quite good at maths. I did accounts for GCSE and then A-level and it seemed to be the natural thing to do. You know, there was no. There was no question of not going to university. There was no question of kind of, oh, we're going to have a gap year here and travel the world, and you know that that wasn't available to me at that time. So it was about getting good a-level grades. And I was fortunate, you know, quite academic.

Speaker 2: 14:32

In school my mum used to always say look, there's two ways to get on in life. One's with a pen, the other's with a shovel. Pens later than the shovel and you guys were all capable of um, that's, that's progressing through life with a pen. So it's one of these ones. You roll your eyes at the time and then you kind of reflect back and go. You know what? There's huge wisdom in all of those clichés that we heard back then. But we weren't ready to receive them. So that was the route I pursued Get good A-level grades, get a university qualification and then, before I even could think about it, by the end of my second year it was only a three-year degree, but the end of my second year we went through what was called the milk round.

Speaker 2: 15:13

The large accountancy firms came in and they were recruiting second-year graduates and giving them conditional offers for a place in their apprenticeship programs whenever they qualified at the end of their third year. So by the time I was 21, I had finished University and I was knowing this path, this conveyor belt of accountancy. So before you could even actually stand back and reflect and contemplate what might this be like in another 10 years, you were, you were on that conveyor belt. You stepped into an apprenticeship. It was three and a half years. You know you're out the other end of that and you're now 20, 24, 25 and and I realized by the time I'd qualified that, no, I don't want to be an accountant, but the qualification is a wonderful qualification. It's a passport in the business, it's a passport to travel. And as soon as I qualified, it was very fortunate because I've been. Qualification is a wonderful qualification. It's a passport in the business, it's a passport to travel.

Speaker 2: 16:05

And as soon as I qualified, I was very fortunate because I've been seconded into a software company to head up their finance function at that stage. And as soon as I qualified they offered me the job and I was involved during the dot-com boom and supporting the supporting that company and their scaling. At that stage we scaled, you know, with offices in hong kong and states, and it's an incredible journey. And then with every good boom there was a bust and hence then the, the conversation that I had with the founder of cda at that stage, who had ambition to to grow this company, loved the product development, loved the sales aspect but didn't want to do all the other bits in the middle. So I joined that business as a finance director and shortly after they became the lead, the empty of that business.

Speaker 2: 16:56

So so I think, the accountancy it was only when I'd actually qualified that I'd said no, this isn't, this isn't something that I want to do for the rest of my life, but it's, I have to say, kind of no, I'm looking back. The having that understanding of the numbers gives you a wonderful insight into to business and as a young kid I was always involved in, I was, I was always working within businesses, loved the dynamic of business and and just get a great buzz. Being involved with businesses, especially small to medium-sized enterprises, where you get this kind of raw authenticity, this kind of unbridled ambition and a wonderful energy, and when you can help SME leaders to harness that energy, to direct it in a way and to support them with putting systems and processes in to achieve what they want to do, it's just incredibly rewarding.

Speaker 1: 17:55

Yeah, it's a perfect roadway in for you to become who you are right now and do what you actually do right now and again, using a quote from Dr Demartini, he says that everything is on the way, not on the way, and it's funny when we look back at all those wee things that we think they're not that important, but they're leading us on that path yeah, it's easy to join the dots.

Speaker 2: 18:14

Now, looking back and you go, yeah, I couldn't be doing what I, what I do now. I couldn't, I couldn't coach people on the on the topic of scaling, had it not been for 17 years of and you know, four years prior to that and, amicus, you know more than 20 years of actually scaling, of traveling the world of, of setting a vision, of leaning into that vision, of inspiring people around, that vision of putting processes in place, of measuring performance, of, you know, leaning on on external finance. It's, it's, it's all of those bits that actually have come together to well to actually create the framework which we now coach upon fantastic so I'll ask this question then.

Speaker 1: 19:06

Brendan, like for me, I always like to look at. I always like to look at it from a human behavior standpoint and I like to look at right. Well, what were the things that were missing that really create the thing that's giving you the inspiration right now? So, when you speak about scaling and you speak about growth and you can see your face lights up and you're inspired by it. What does that directly come from? Where do you feel that that's coming from? Why are you so inspired to actually do exactly what you're doing right now?

Speaker 2: 19:33

That's a great question and I feel that we're all innately wired to grow. I think we are all innately wired to create. You know, if you're not creating, you're disintegrating. We want nobody, ever, no business person ever, celebrated at the end of the year go, what an incredible year that was of zero growth. Let's do that again next year. You know, that's just not in, I feel, in anyone's lexicon. We all want to create in some capacity and I feel that SMEs are almost this invisible middle.

Speaker 2: 20:16

99% of businesses by volume are small to medium-sized enterprises and, more than you know, between 60 to 70 percent of people who work are actually working for SMEs. They form the very backbone of our societies and so many of those SME leaders are are stuck. They're stuck in the bowels of the business, not nobody. They didn't plan to get there. You know. They probably left a previous role to pursue a passion. They held, a belief that they could. They could do something better serve customers in a better way than their previous employer could and so they left that business to create the sense of freedom. But they're now stuck. Or you know second generation leaders where they feel this obligation to a founding father and it typically is a father to take this business on, but it's not really their dream, it's the founding father's dream. So there's a little hollowness inside there and a kind of a sense of a lack of purpose. And you know you have others who are graduates, graduates of startups, who you know are startup founders, and they suffer from a little bit of hubris. They think you know what got them to here in the context of starting this business will get them to there in the context of scaling. So just sharing, arriving at a point where you've got this knowledge, this knowledge at 49, a level of wisdom, a level of lived experience.

Speaker 2: 21:49

I've been fortunate enough to travel six continents. I'm, I'm you know again, I'm a father, I'm married, I have three kids. So you've got all of that. You've got all of that lived experience. You know I'm not coaching people to scale a business as a single person. It doesn't have kids who can't go well, that's grand. But what do I do at home, at? Or somebody in my thirties who maybe, you know you haven't experienced any health challenges yet? You know, yeah, yeah, you know, let's work 18 hour days and go for you. Well, that's not, that's not what we want either.

Speaker 2: 22:24

So you know, ultimately, for us it's about? It's about inspiring, connecting, enabling ambitious leaders of SMEs to scale with purpose. And what do we mean by that? The importance of purpose is critical here. It's, you know, growth for growth's sake is the ideology of a cancer cell. It was Edward Arbery, the environmental activist, who said that.

Speaker 2: 22:46

So this is about scaling is doing different, growing is doing more of the same, and that doing different I'm fascinated with. So that starts with the psyche of the leader, and if you can create a sense of awareness, or certainly shine, help the leader, you know, turn the dimmer switch and brighten up their awareness of the impact that they're having, not only on the customers in terms of the product or service that they're providing, but the people that they compel or inspire to bring into the business. Their interactions with their team today, whether positive or negative, will ultimately reverberate in that person's home later. If they're married, maybe, or they're in a relationship, their partner will feel whether they've had a good day or a bad day. Their kids will feel whether they've had a good day or a bad day. Their kids will feel whether they're doing something that they're sparked about, that has a sense of purpose and meaning.

Speaker 2: 23:55

And, ultimately, if we can support leaders to scale with purpose, consciously scaling their business so that they can some of what we call scale Everest and get to the top of scale Everest, feeling that they have actually they have this sense of wonderful accomplishment, that they've stepped out of their comfort zone, that they've challenged themselves, that they've actually become a better person at the top of that summit and they're surrounded with a team of people who said I didn't think we could get up here. This is incredible. It was a really challenging journey. But look at the growth that we've experienced as a team, look at the growth that we've experienced as an organization. Look at the value that we've delivered to a wider audience with a wonderful product or service and kind of. There's this metaphorical high-five at the summit of that mountain and they're all looking at one another and going right, we're next.

Speaker 2: 24:52

You know that's a very different proposition than then. You, you know, dragging yourself up the that that that mountain, you know, and arriving at the top absolutely frazzled your health and bits, your closest relationships, and tatters and your team are strewn all along the mountainside and they're looking up and they're stranded and they're looking at you again. Why the hell did you bring me up here? Why? Why did? Why did you bring us up here? You know so.

Speaker 2: 25:20

So ultimately, we want harnessing that understanding that people are creating machines we're here to. We're here to create. Think of, think of everything we're doing right now. You know, this wouldn't have happened had somebody not thought about the technology that's enabling this conversation right now. You know, and they've taken that thought, they've felt into if they've actually taken action to create what's enabling this conversation, taken action to create what's enabling this conversation. That's incredible and there's a sense of I can only imagine a great sense of accomplishment from those people behind the technology that's enabling these conversations and that's happening right across the world. And we want to support those SMEs to do more of what they love doing, to create more value to a wider audience and, in doing so, inspire people to want to join in their vision, in their crusade, but clearly understanding why they're doing it in the first instance.

Speaker 1: 26:26

Fantastic man, and there's so many different things there that I would love to delve into, but what I'll probably start with first, then, brendan, is you talked already about the psyche, and that's an area that I really, really love and want to delve into with you and understanding. What's the difference, then, in terms of what a person needs as a leader, as a business owner in their psyche to really start to scale and psych themselves and their business to the next level.

Speaker 2: 26:52

It's a great question, and so we created, just for the, for the benefit of the listeners we created a framework of 10 fundamental principles. I spent a couple of years interviewing people from across the globe who had scaled successfully and comparing that to my experience, to cla Claire's experience, who co-authored the business. We'd combined more than 40 years of scaling experience and crafted the 10 principles. These are fundamental truths of every scaling business, regardless of sector, regardless of the actual geographic location. They're truths that belie every scaling success. And the very first principle is psyche, and I would assert that's 80% of scaling. Now, that's and this is beyond the startup phase We've now established a product market fit, we have a product or service that has been delivered to an audience, to customers, and there's been an exchange of value by virtue of money. So what prevents companies who have reached, let's say, a million pounds in revenue taking that to 10 million? What prevents a company who has achieved 10 million in revenue taking that to a hundred million? And I would assert that it's mindset, it's your psyche, and it begins with a level of awareness that actually your psyche matters in the first instance, that it's not necessarily current interest rates, inflation levels, market restrictions, brexit. There are companies in all of these challenging market conditions and there will always be some level of challenge in the context of market conditions. And if you focus on those, those expand and ultimately lead into what I, you know, refer to next is your your own internal self story. So if you're telling yourself that actually this is really challenging, that actually I've just been lucky I've heard this come from a workshop last week and one of the one of the the CEOs in running an incredible company, an CEO but he doesn't believe that he feels that he's arrived at this point because he's been lucky. Now if your internal narrative, if your self-story, is I'm not really an entrepreneur, I've just been lucky, I'm not as good as Bill over there or Sue over there, that it's really difficult. That I kind of, um, I should hunker down and protect what I've already got, that probably nobody really wants your product or service over there anyway, then ultimately you're not going to achieve scale. So, checking in on that internal story, that narrative I interviewed at the wonderful privilege of interviewing dr. Dr Jim Lear wrote a wonderful book, the powerful engagement. He's authored actually 18 or 19 books. He has coached the likes of Novak Djokovic, roger Federer and many business leaders across the world founded a company called human performance institute, which was which he scaled and sold to to johnson and johnson and um. His line is that the content and tone of her inner voice will ultimately determine the quality of your life. And I would simply add to that that that content and tone of your inner voice will ultimately determine your scaling trajectory. So well, and it's back to what Henry Ford says.

Speaker 2: 30:38

We talked about cliches earlier. You know whether you believe you can or you can't. Either way, you prove yourself right. So when I talk to leaders and and you know 10x is a little bit arbitrary, but we'll use 10x, you know. I said what's preventing you from taking your business from 1 million to 10 million they'll intellectualize all the reasons why that's challenging and that they haven't done it before. I said well, take the million pounds revenue and divide it by 10. I said at one stage your business was a hundred thousand pounds. It's not a million pounds. You've ten axed your business. So you can't tell me that there isn't a stack of evidence to suggest that you should be confident and actually have belief that you can take this from one million to ten million. What's the difference? The difference is the story that actually you're telling yourself. You're, you're getting in your own way and ultimately, this level of kind of internal interference in the context of your internal narrative is ultimately the impediment which is preventing so many SME leaders from scaling. In fact, it was cited in the research that was conducted by the Scale Up Institute that lack of ambition of the leader is the single greatest impediment as to why SMEs don't scale.

Speaker 2: 31:53

Now, you and I both know that SME leaders don't lack of, lack ambition, but we lift the lid on that. There's two, I assert there's two strands to that. One is ignorance. So I don't know how I've kind of, I've got to hear you know, through grit, determination, luck, whatever you, whatever you wish to to, to coat that as um. Our 10 principles provide leaders with the, with the knowledge. So we're saying well, there's, you don't have to be ignorant, apply the knowledge that's actually written in this book and you don't have to come on to our program. You know, take the book it's 15 quid and and apply what's in the book. But a lot of people can, was, will say, well, I know what to do, but very, very few actually do what they know. So that hence the program and we hand hold people across that. The other, more sinister kind of a strand of lack of ambition is the unchallenged limiting beliefs. So it's back to that.

Speaker 2: 32:52

You mentioned values and belief systems from your origin. You know my growing up, money was always an issue. So we would hear things like money doesn't grow on trees. Do you think there's a money tree at the bottom of the garden? You can't afford that, you know you'll. You get the hand me down. So actually, you know you weren't worthy of new things. You weren't't worthy, you didn't. You know there wasn't a value put on. No, you know you're going to this event today. I don't care, you're going to wear the new shirt or whatever it is. No, no, you'll take your brothers that's been sewn three or four times and kind of adjusted and everything else. So you've got to get that kind of get an understanding of what's going on there in the in, in, in that, in that belief system. And I'll just finish on that, because when it comes to actually business, typically growing up in the town there were one or two entrepreneurs and those entrepreneurs were never celebrated. There was always some kind of cloud around. They only earned their money through something illicit.

Speaker 1: 33:52

So your association with business was one that actually the only way you can earn money is is through, you know, being in business, but actually being in business is associated with something illicit, so you kind of have to kind of weed through all of this stuff, like you've had so many different points there that resonate with me in terms of where I grew up and what I grew up listening to as well, and you actually led into the question that I was going to ask you next but I had the same thing where, if I, if we seen somebody that was doing well or they had some sort of income or a nice car, and, like, my parents were unemployed I grew up living on benefits with my parents, so I had the same things in terms of the lack of abundance and stuff, and if somebody was doing well, I will they're doing something wrong.

Speaker 1: 34:37

They're not. They're not definitely doing it right there. They've. They've conned somebody in some sort of way, like so, culturally, um, growing up where we grew up, I think that was an art of that was always present for sure. So suppose the next question is then then, brendan, what do you see then in terms of the differences between the psyche of people that maybe grew up in Ireland or grew up in Northern Ireland, in terms of trying to scale compared to the other guys, maybe in the UK or maybe in the States or something? What's the difference that you're seeing that keeps seeming to recur over and over and over again in terms of the shift mentally.

Speaker 2: 35:14

Brilliant question. It's a number of things. It's their belief system. So, if you're in the US, I took the family to New York. I'd spent three months in New York as a 19-year-old and it was just incredible. Arriving in JFK, like coming out of JFK, it was just like the movies and going holy shit, there's another world out here and everything was big and ambitious and expansive and can't do so. The belief system, if we take the us, is very different from do so. The belief system if we take the US is very different from the, from the belief system that's inherent. That is our Irish paradigm. If you think and I've been reflecting this lately and we grew up in the 70s and 80s, there was, you know, it was a time when the Catholic Church was was heavily influential, and when you reflect in that you go. Well, actually we're born into this world. It's believed that we're born sinners and you can actually never, you know, without getting too heavy on the religious side, but actually we're born bad people.

Speaker 2: 36:25

So already we don't feel worthy so if you're born with kids, you're ready, you're not worthy. And this does kind of there's, there's, there's the inherent fears that we have, which is fear of failure, fear of judgment. You know, again, you grew up, you know you didn't. You know you, you're careful not to get anything. What would the neighbors say? Or careful, careful there's just to comply. What would what would the neighbors say if our johnny did this, if sheamus did this? Brendan did this, what you know? So there was this this strong and kind of feeling of just complying because you didn't want anybody to judge what, what, what, what you were doing. And then, and then there's the other, more sinister aspect of kind of growing up in the 70s and 80s is this fear of success. So you know this notion that we're actually not worthy. If you think of our language, you know. So ask somebody in northern ireland how they're doing and typically what's the response?

Speaker 1: 37:26

oh, it's a it's a mouthful of complaints and moments that's it, yeah, and it's typically not too bad.

Speaker 2: 37:32

So essentially we've got this inherent state of being bad, but today we're actually on the scale of badness. We're not actually too bad today. So you don't hear that language in the us, there's no. You ask somebody in the us how they're doing they're great, they're awesome, they're amazing, and we find that kind of unpalatable or a bit icky and you go come on, you know, but you know, you know we ask the question what's the difference? The belief system is very different, their language is very different and ultimately you know their. Their actions and behaviors then follow, which are very, very different. So a lot of our program is actually about getting inside the psyche of the leader to help them kindwire a more and craft a more positive story that's aligned to successful skating.

Speaker 1: 38:40

Yeah, I think that's so. So it's so true, brendan, and it's so important as well, too, because I coach guys in the States and I coach guys that are here, and I see the differences in terms of, as you said, their mentality, and I love using the quote by um. James cleary says environment is invisible hand that shapes human behavior, and it's so, so true, and I think, like that's, one of the most important first steps for anybody that is looking to scale or grow or do anything is to put themselves in the right environment I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2: 39:12

You, you think, go back to the statistics. So if there's 100 SME leaders in a room, one of those is achieving scaling and the other 99 are likely saying, because they'll take comfort in the fact that they're not saying that, you're mad. You, you know what you're doing is, is is mad, and and and. For you to rail against the other 99 is so incredibly different. I remember walking past a pier uh, this is years ago in killie bags and I couldn't understand why there was uh buckets that were open at the top full of crabs. I was thinking, holy christ, nobody putting a lid on those buckets. What if those crabs get out? And I learned the crab theory later, which helped explain why there was never any. These, these buckets were full of crabs. There's never any crabs or there's never any lids on the buckets, and what happens is if one crab tries to get out of the bucket, the other crabs pull that crab back, so no crab can ever get out of the bucket. And I think of that in the context of an environment. So I always say to people whatever it is you want to do, if you want to become competent at running, then join a running club. If you want to become a competent swimmer, join a swimming club.

Speaker 2: 40:36

I embarked on triathlon. I competed in martial arts for years for about 25 years and then I got into triathlon as an effort to kind of learn how to swim and, rather than join a club, I bought a DVD, total Immersion, sw immersion swimming in the times when actually the laptops had access for a DVD player and you stuck the DVD and I used. Colleen thought it was mental. My wife, I would lie on the couch in the evening, put the laptop on the floor, play the video and practice these strokes, and then I would try and memorize these strokes and go into the swim for the next morning on my own um going. Oh yeah, they did that. That it was. It was a disaster. I managed to get through, I don't know how, but my first triathlon um without drowning. I really should have drowned.

Speaker 2: 41:23

And then somebody said we should really join a club and I was just a game changer. Everything came on. My cycling, come on. My swimming, come on. We were being coached. My running, come on, and I didn't feel I was doing anything different. What it was was.

Speaker 2: 41:39

I was in a very, very different environment. So I said people know if, if you want to scale your business, join a scaling club. Join a club with others who are actually doing what you're trying to do, who harbour same ambition levels, who will champion, cheerlead, support you and who you can actually vibe off, who you will resonate with as opposed to think. Well, I've got this bunch of friends but whenever I go home and tell them what we're doing, kind of they roll their eyes and they just don't understand me or the ambition level that I harbour or what we're doing, kind of the ruler eyes and they just don't understand me or what, or the ambition level that I harbor or what we're trying to do. Um, so yeah, the environment's critical. Join a club, whatever, whatever it is that you want to do, join a club of people, a group of people who are doing the same thing, and you just find that your performance naturally, without actually you exerting any more effort, you will naturally perform better 100, and the thing you mentioned with a crab in the bucket.

Speaker 1: 42:41

It's funny. It reminds me of the australians they call the tall poppy syndrome, where, where they get themselves up above themselves, they naturally come along and kind of chop you down again, bring you back and they where they expect you to be. So, um, it's crucial, as you said, join the right club. So a couple more questions, brendan, just aware of time. So if you're looking to grow and scale a business, you need to be a leader in some way or form. You need to have leadership qualities, you need to have good leadership qualities. What do you see, um like within the companies that you work with, the business owners you work with, and from your own experience, what do you see that within the companies that you work with the business owners you work with, and from your own experience, what do you see that?

Speaker 2: 43:18

makes a good leader? Yeah, another great question. Well, first of all, leaders have great clarity about where they're going, so they are wonderful storytellers in the context of where they're going. So they they articulate a dream of arriving at a place in the future which is better than now, and in doing so and being able to share that story of a future dream, they inspire people to want to come to join them in our dream. They care deeply about people. They it's not about them kind of recruiting people in in a transactional way, in a functional way, so that they can elevate their standing. They're focused on actually being star makers not necessarily the star and take great passion and joy from the collective achievement of the dream that they have actually created a story around initially.

Speaker 2: 44:33

So they're incredible. They're incredible at selling a vision. They're wonderful communicators. They care passionately about people, deeply care about people at a at a human level, not at a functional, transactional level. And and they're good to be around people. You know there there's something about them that actually people go. Yeah, there's just something about that guy or that girl that I don't know what it is, but you know, and I'm not even sure where they're going, but I'm going with them, because there's a sense of trust and respect that this person will have your back, that that actually it's not a case of them manipulating you for their game. So there there are other. There are other qualities and kind of traits, but I would, I would suggest that those are. Those are the main ones. Every, every leader can articulate to others what great looks like In the context of a vision. You said there that they and they communicate that at every opportunity.

Speaker 1: 45:48

Yeah, I think that's again. You're kinda touching on that energy that a person has when you feel that from somebody that's infectious, you want more of it.

Speaker 2: 46:01

And this is you know you're. It's a saying your vibe attracts your tribe. What does that actually mean? Well, we are all energetic beings. When you, just you know, you cut your kind of atoms down into subatomic particles and cut and cut and cut what you're, what what's left with, what remains is energy, and and it's our vibration which resonates with others. So when we talk about ceo, we don't talk about chief executive officer, which is a military term which I don't particularly like, talk about chief energy officer.

Speaker 2: 46:34

It's incumbent on every leader to actually bring that that energy to others, to actually to actually you know, you know people.

Speaker 2: 46:42

When you walk in the room, go, god, yeah, there's great energy in this room. And you know with the people that you know you, you know, as soon as you look around the room, go, ah, yeah, it's, it's it's bill or it's Sharonaron or whatever. You know they've just infused the room with energy. Yeah, you also know those who who actually drain. So I always encourage people, and especially leaders, to to do an energy audit, to, to to audit their lives for those who are radiators, who bring wonderful energy, and those who are drains, who drain their energy. Because ultimately, in order for you and I'm glad you mentioned it from a leadership perspective in order for you to bring great energy to do something really challenging, which you haven't done before, and compel, inspire others to actually want to do the same, to motivate them to do the same, you, you must fill your cup up first. You, you, your energy levels must be, must be full in order for you actually to bring great energy to others to fill the cup of others.

Speaker 1: 47:45

Yeah, 100%. And I spent the weekend there with Dr Demartini in London and it's funny, he mentioned the week quote and he said that he always kept a trampoline in his office, you know, like the wee bunch of trampolines, he says, always used to keep my energy up. Because because I always found that when my energy was up, my business was up. And it's so, so simple, such a simple thing that just changes your energy, change your vibration, and then how you interact with people when they're coming in is going to be completely different. Last question, brendan. So for me, I look at, I look at, I think more over the last five or six years, when I really started to delve more into mindset, human behavior and looking at things as a whole. And with every crisis there's a blessing, with every challenge there's support, there's always the other side. If you were to think back through your career, your life in general, what's been one of the biggest challenges that you've had and what's been the blessing that's come out of it and what have you learned?

Speaker 2: 48:44

The biggest challenge that I've had is the challenge of being a parent and parenting Anya, who is 20, who has high-function autism, who now has her own podcast, which I'll give a shout-out to. Not so Typical, and when Anya was growing up, we didn't realise Anya had autism. So it was challenging in every respect. For anyone listening who has an autistic kid or an autistic sibling, you'll resonate with the challenges of not understanding, of being ignorant to it prior to you actually becoming aware. Ah, this is this, this is what it is. It doesn't necessarily make it easier, but at least now you can start to do something about it, as opposed to previously thinking well, you're, you know you're not parenting correctly and so you've got all of this guilt about how you're conducting yourself. So hugely challenging through Anya's teenage years. But that led Colleen and I. Colleen left teaching to support Anya, while I was still very much heavily involved with CDE and we were scaling significantly at that stage. I was still very much heavily involved with CDE and we were scaling significantly at that stage. I was traveling a lot, so she left teaching, sacrificed her career to, to support, to, to support Anya's needs.

Speaker 2: 50:07

That stage I I went on this journey to try and after years of wanting Anya to change, I realized the only person needs to change here is me. I need to. I need to change such that I create an environment back to that word environment again create an environment which is conducive to only being the best that she can possibly be. And that led me down a road of initially kind of meditation, starting to be a little bit more introspective, to examine my beliefs, my values, my conduct, my behavior, and led me to actually discovering this crazy dutch guy called wim hof. Uh, I went then on a wim hof method just had such a profound impact I'll never forget actually walking into this room. You know, arriving at this place we don't have time now to share the full story, but arriving at this place walked into this room and this guy at the top of the room there was 20, myself calling in 20 strangers and said okay, put one hand up, one hand down. Now turn around to your left and give the person to your left a hug. I want Christ. It was the most uncomfortable thing I've ever done.

Speaker 2: 51:26

That was hugging strangers, and over that 36 hours I never felt such peace in terms of the kind of that, the peace of mind when you're in the cold exposure. For those not familiar with the Wim Hof method, it's focused on cold exposure mindset and a breathing practice and up to that point I'd taken, you know, more than 20,000 breaths for probably 42, 43 years of being on this planet and I never knew that I could consciously take one of them. And I discovered that I had this kind of ability to accelerate or ability to break all through my breath and to to actually create a state of mind that that would allow me to actually change, begin to change myself. Story in the ice you feel a sense of calm and peace and there's when you do this with a bunch of strangers, over 36 hours I'm still in touch with these people. Like four or five years on, you create this sense of connection. That's almost primal. It's very, very difficult to explain.

Speaker 2: 52:28

You know I'm coming to this as a chartered accountant which is the story. Chartered director. You know you don't do these things. It's like you know, but all of a sudden you're hugging strangers in your shorts after doing an ice bath in November in the west coast of Ireland, and so I did 36 hours of that.

Speaker 2: 52:47

I went back then a short while later and did a week-long retreat and decided right, I need to in some capacity bring this to the business world, because there are a lot of stressful leaders out there and this is a you know, I was previously doing martial arts to kind of get rid of the stress, the triathlon, and so it was you were full on on one side, which is the business side, and then full on on the other side, which is kind of this. This means to try and relax and now all of a sudden I could get the same feeling from from 10 minutes of breath work. So I decided after the week long I would, I would go and become an instructor. I went out to strew and met win and embarked on my part on becoming an instructor and became instructor three years ago now did you meet some Bart Chilton.

Speaker 1: 53:38

Was he there at the? Time I did yeah, I know Bart well, Bart on the podcast.

Speaker 2: 53:44

Brilliant guy, small world. Yeah, so Bart was actually one of the first people I met. He was one of the instructors whenever I went out to Strew for the first time, whenever we were doing our advanced, and then met Bart again when we were doing our advanced and then met bard again when we were completing our masters.

Speaker 2: 54:01

So you know, two weeks ago I took a bunch of ceos from across northern ireland and they they scaled around snezga almost 1700 meters up, minus five in their shorts, you know. So if you'd have have said to me, like 10 years ago, when I'm a suited, a booted executive at this scaling company, that I'd be leading CEOs from across Ireland up a mountain in their shorts, minus five, it's just a word that I can't contemplate. Yeah, but actually what's really wonderful is that when you strip the mask and the persona of business all back, it's just, we're just human, and so the more human and more authentic you can be as a leader, the better opportunity you have to scale your company purpose and underneath all that, I think brendan um, you just touched on that as what we're all looking for within that as well to you, is just connection, and it's good yeah, it's a connection with others.

Speaker 2: 55:04

We're, we're. We're just tribal mammals. You know we want to be part of a tribe. You know what's what. What is the wonderful privilege of leading an sme is that you get to create your own tribe and you get to decide how you want to show up in that tribe. You don't have to comply to what you feel it is to be. You know, a leader in business. We strip all of that noise back back to energy, because all of that, if you're, if you're, if you're playing somebody that you're not, if you're putting a huge amount of energy into being this person that you're not, that takes a huge amount of energy. Strip all of that back, find who you are and authentically lead, and people will connect with that 100%, because that's when you're most inspired, when you're being your authentic self.

Speaker 1: 55:57

That's when you're most inspired and when you're being your authentic self, that's when you're most inspired and again, going back to your vibe attracts your tribe. Last question we're going to end on conversations. That matters is the name of the podcast. If you were to have a conversation with yourself at any time, maybe like throughout your life, or maybe as a young kid, what would that conversation be? What would you tell yourself?

Speaker 2: 56:23

I've never been asked that before I would. I would go back to my 10-year-old self. I've deliberately chosen that age. My father fell ill. He had had, he had gone through two heart attacks. He had come out of surgery, he wasn't working and for the first time in life I seen him, you know, unshaven quitewell. And I remember actually just passing my 11 plus and going up to him with the results and kind of quite uncertain at that stage of how things would be. And I tell my 10-year-old self that actually things always work out in the end.

Speaker 1: 57:16

Fantastic man. It's beautiful, brenton. Thank you for sharing it. I've really enjoyed this podcast. I really enjoyed the conversation. There's a lot of insights in there for business owners, business leaders, people who want to scale and grow, and not just around the business. I think we probably touched we didn't really touch on the business. A lot of it. It was all around the psyche, the mindset, the human being, the person and what that takes in order to grow as a person. That'll enable your business to grow. But for people that are listening and brendan, who want to reach out and find out more about what you do, where's the best place to reach out and find about simple scaling?

Speaker 2: 57:53

thanks for asking, seamus, so you can reach me on LinkedIn. Quite active on LinkedIn Brennan McGuigan. You'll find our contact details on our website, simple scaling calm, if you want to find out a little bit more about our scale X accelerator program and some of the other some of the other aspects of our business. We have scale X talent solutions, which supports those who have an aspiration to scale with the challenge of finding great talent. We also have an investment arm with the business scalex investments only applicable to those who are actually participants or graduates or program, and so there are a number of number of components there. You'll find everything that you need to know on simple scaling calm. You get me on on LinkedIn and, yeah, I'd love to hear from you. If you got value from this conversation, it would be great to hear from you. And, of course, our book, simple Scaling 10 Proven Principles to 10 Acts your Business is available on Amazon.

Speaker 1: 58:49

Fantastic, brendan. Thank you very much. Man Really enjoyed it Pleasure. Thank you, seamus. Thanks for having me on.